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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with the South Andrews the thinking

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atheist this silly sideshow conversation

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that always dominates center stage is

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science versus religion and to me the

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questions are much deeper than that and

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really boil down to one question is your

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mind purely a function of your brain

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because if it's not then we start having

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to introduce all these other topics that

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do kind of make us uneasy because they

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start sounding very spiritual it's not

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necessarily a new thing for people to

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say you can't understand abstract

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consciousness that's not a new argument

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but to say that the reputable science

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community is advocating that there must

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be a conduit of spirit out there that is

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responsible I don't think that's

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accurate I don't think it's reflected by

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mainstream especially secular scientists

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who are the majority and I think if you

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spend that much time playing what if

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you'll drive yourself nuts I think you

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start the argument from elsewhere that

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is exactly why I wanted to do this

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interview in two parts because I have to

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tell you in the dialogues I've had we

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always get to this point we have to dig

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through all the opinions that we might

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have beliefs we might have and try and

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do as good a job as we can of getting

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down to the science getting down to the

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scientific evidence and understanding it

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the best we can stay with us for skeptic

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host Alex Karras and on today's

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episode I have a dialogue with the

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thinking atheist Seth Andrews who's

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popular YouTube channel has nearly a

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hundred thousand subscribers and

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millions of views now as you know from

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listening to skeptic oh it's hard to

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book these kind of interviews despite

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their claims to the contrary atheists

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and skeptics don't really like to get

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into debates about science and about the

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evidence behind their beliefs so I was

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delighted when Seth agreed to come on

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and come on to my new concept I had this

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idea for a two-part format where we'd

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use the first interview to kind of map

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out our ideas map out our thoughts and

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then use the second part of the

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interview to really get into the debate

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so here then is my first interview with

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Seth Andrews the thinking atheist today

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we welcome Seth Andrews to skeptic Oh

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Seth as the creator of the thinking

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atheist a very popular website and

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YouTube channel Seth is also a former

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Christian and a former Christian

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broadcaster who challenges his listeners

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to assume nothing question everything

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and start thinking welcome Seth and

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thanks for joining me on skeptic Oh

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answer real pleasure thanks for the

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invite and and thanks for allowing me to

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be a part of the show awesome I am

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really grateful that you've joined me I

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love your tagline on your call for

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deeper thinking about some of these

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issues I I could just have easily

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written that myself I just hope that our

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dialogue today lives up to that at least

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a little bit and give some folks

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something to think about well some

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people you know will say you know Seth

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are you the thinking atheist and I

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always stop for just a second I say well

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no no no the thinking the thinking

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atheist is a an outline of a guy with a

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light bulb in his head I'm just the guy

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who

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and I I wanted a website and a moniker

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that just encouraged people to to think

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it out it was in my life when I stopped

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accepting what I was told and by my

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family culture society and I started

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thinking for myself finally I was late

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to that party but I finally decided to

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show up it was it was when I started

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thinking that all of a sudden these

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mysteries began to sort of i began to

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find the answers to many of the

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questions i was looking for and so

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that's really what i want i don't mean

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for it to be egotistical some people say

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it is a you and I always say no they say

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is it redundant the thinking atheist and

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I go absolutely not just because

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somebody's nay theist does not mean it's

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a guarantee that they are thinking but

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we should all have our minds engaged

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anywhere we go and try to figure it out

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as best we can well I think you're true

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to that really on your site and in your

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youtube channel it's not somebody out

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there pushing themselves with their name

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out front and their image all over the

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place and I like that i think it does

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push someone to look past that given

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folks a little bit of an introduction to

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what you do and what you're about but i

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also want to let people hear a little

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bit from one of your presentations

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actually the one that led me to you it's

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a youtube video you put together titled

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the afterlife it's really quite well

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done and i think it's quite provocative

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if i can let me play a short clip about

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a minute clip from that and then we'll

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roll right into you can tell us about

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that clip about the youtube channel that

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you've put together and maybe more of an

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introduction to what you're doing there

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is that's not okay sounds good if you

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spent a lovely day at the beach and then

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returned the following weekends knowing

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that it had one of fewer grain of sand

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would it seem like a different beach so

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too with the universe continued in its

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way as if humanity weren't here to

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witness it

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the universe is absolutely massive and

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we are virtually insignificant in it I

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have on occasion had people tell me that

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my life must be so depressing because

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I'm an atheist it's doom and gloom once

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you die it's it's all over and it's just

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absurd to me how many people live for

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dying in this weird way I think fragile

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fearful humans were terrified of death

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and so they wrote their own ending to

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the story this happy fantasy a place

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where they'll be reunited with people

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they've lost they'll experience constant

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joy and of course they'll never ever die

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okay so that's our guest Seth Andrews so

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tell us a little bit about this

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particular video well my youtube channel

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started around the same time that I

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launched the thinking atheist com

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website it was at the end of kind of a

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rough journey which echoes the journey

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of many who came out of religion

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normally and for you know what normally

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happens is if you are like me you were

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raised in the cradle of a religious

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family and culture I mean I went the

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whole the whole route you know I had

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theologian parents who you know took

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trips to the holy land and who were

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Bible scholars and wrote sermons for

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local pastors and and you know they were

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the real deal they weren't just passing

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sunday christians they were hardcore and

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so that was the environment in which i

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was raised and as I became an adult I

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assume most I think my thinking was well

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there was so well educated they're

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geniuses they're so smart they must know

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and I was a Christian broadcaster for a

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long time and then finally I you know I

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started to you know I don't know if what

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it is about getting older but I just

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started to become uneasy and and so

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around

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you know 2008 i was at critical mass and

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and i did I was just tired of making

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excuses for all the stuff that made no

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sense and by 2009 I was a full-blown

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atheist I was just saying the word out

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loud and I wanted to help other people

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out of their particular journeys to

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remind them that they were not alone to

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make me help give them some information

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as I was doing some of my own homework

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and to challenge some of the established

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thinking and so I I started him a

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professional video producer now and I

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started putting together just some

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videos and put them on YouTube but on

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the website and had a few hundred hits

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here or there and the first ones were

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nothing really to crow about they were

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just my first attempts but they were big

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steps for me they were the first video I

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ever put up was called the invisible God

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and it was a challenge to my first

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public challenge to the deity that I had

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formerly this thing I had formerly been

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raised with and taught to be loyal to

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and in some ways afraid of it was a big

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big deal and then by produced at the

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time I was really going I mean a couple

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of videos a month single-handedly just

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buried myself in the production room and

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just kept going and going and going and

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then before you know what we're doing

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radio podcast and I mean the facebook

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page begin to take off and you know now

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here in the year 2012 i found myself

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struggling to keep up you know i find

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myself thinking man I need a staff I

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need somebody to come in and help out

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you know oh yeah it's a good problem to

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have but that's kind of how they get the

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whole thing got going so it is quite an

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endeavor that is the thinking atheist

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like only imagine I mean just looking at

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all the different things you've gone you

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have going on so obviously I've watched

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some of your YouTube videos I've also

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read some of your blog post and I've

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listened to some of your podcast which

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are interesting because you actually

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have people call in and I get a sense

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from that from where some of your

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audience is at and I get it you know in

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terms of the dialogue that I'd like to

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have with you today I guess the first

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thing I'd say is I do get that I mean

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Christianity is silly coercive

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and you despite all that still being a

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huge influence that we can all see in

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our culture or society or politics all

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that and I also get you know like we're

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just talking about and listen to your

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podcast the personal part of it you know

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how the the cursive nature of it and how

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a lot of us are indoctrinated into us

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into it at a very young age makes it

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hard to shake and makes it really messes

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unnecessarily the part that interests me

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and the part that I really want a

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dialogue with you about is what lies

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behind that you know what is the deeper

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truth beyond all this arm waving about

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science versus religion which to me

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really seems like more of a sideshow

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because to me the real question

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scientifically more or less is is that

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little voice inside our head that is our

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consciousness is that just my brain

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firing or is there something more going

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on well it's a it's a broad stroke that

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you can paint there but you know if you

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were to ask me 15 years ago where does

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consciousness come from of course I'm

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talking about the soul I'm talking about

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that you know that magic the

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unexplainable part of our of our being

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that in that that is a its spirit it is

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eternal it is all these types of things

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and if you were to ask me now after I've

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dug in a little deeper and and come to

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some different conclusions I in my mind

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i seea says i am my mind my

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consciousness is essentially a product

273
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:21,990
of the electrical impulses of the brain

274
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i think they're physically explainable

275
00:12:28,749 --> 00:12:26,459
even if we don't have all the

276
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explanations yet i don't have an

277
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:31,709
inclination to paint God into all the

278
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cracks into all the vacant spaces

279
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,680
because every time we have done so we

280
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have always been wrong

281
00:12:45,370 --> 00:12:42,140
people have always when they ran into a

282
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:45,380
wall are our ancestors would always play

283
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:48,530
the god card and then as we have evolved

284
00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:51,200
and learned more as a species it turns

285
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:53,180
out that the answer science provided

286
00:12:57,070 --> 00:12:54,800
were more accurate and they were

287
00:12:58,930 --> 00:12:57,080
actually more interesting I mean it

288
00:13:01,360 --> 00:12:58,940
sounds like at least we're approaching

289
00:13:04,090 --> 00:13:01,370
this somewhat from the same angle what

290
00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:04,100
I'd like to propose and I just sketch

291
00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:05,690
this out in very broad terms in the

292
00:13:10,990 --> 00:13:08,180
email that I sent you is kind of a

293
00:13:13,420 --> 00:13:11,000
two-part approach to that because what

294
00:13:15,130 --> 00:13:13,430
I've often encountered is you're out

295
00:13:17,230 --> 00:13:15,140
there you're doing your thing and have

296
00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:17,240
studied a lot of this stuff in great

297
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:19,150
detail and I appreciate that you've also

298
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:21,290
interviewed a lot of very smart people

299
00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:24,050
and I know from my own experience that

300
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:25,880
you know I've grown a lot from that and

301
00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:28,310
i'm sure you have to so you're bringing

302
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,620
a lot of your information to the table

303
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:32,480
which may overlap with some of mine but

304
00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:34,130
there's obviously some stuff that you

305
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:35,720
know that i don't know and the reverse

306
00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:38,450
is probably true so what I want to do in

307
00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:41,150
a little bit of time today is kind of

308
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:43,430
sketch out the territory of this

309
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:45,200
dialogue we might have and say and I'm

310
00:13:49,210 --> 00:13:46,970
going to say hey Seth here's what I'd

311
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:49,220
like to you know bring to it this and

312
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:50,690
this and this and this and here's how I

313
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:53,450
put these pieces fit together and here

314
00:13:57,190 --> 00:13:55,130
are some of the experts I've talked to

315
00:14:00,280 --> 00:13:57,200
and then you know I want you to do that

316
00:14:03,550 --> 00:14:00,290
likewise a little bit and then maybe we

317
00:14:06,970 --> 00:14:03,560
can reconvene in a week or whatever the

318
00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:06,980
time frame is and then see where we

319
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:09,710
really are in terms of pushing each

320
00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:11,930
other with some of this information that

321
00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:14,120
we have how does that sound I mean

322
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:15,830
that's cool you know if it's if we're

323
00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:18,050
having a debate or even a friendly

324
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:20,180
debate as opposed to an interview I mean

325
00:14:24,430 --> 00:14:22,610
I'm cool with that if we're all about

326
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,440
trying to challenge each other to

327
00:14:28,390 --> 00:14:26,480
sharpen our ideas so that we are

328
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:28,400
actually better tomorrow than we are

329
00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:30,290
today I'm all over that I think it's a

330
00:14:34,390 --> 00:14:32,180
fantastic idea and I'm not opposed to it

331
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:34,400
at all great so that's what I'd like to

332
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:37,760
do and since most interviews we've done

333
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:39,890
on skeptical have surrounded this idea

334
00:14:44,290 --> 00:14:42,320
of consciousness and what we know about

335
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,300
consciousness and what we can say and

336
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:46,880
what we can say is probably not true

337
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:49,250
about consciousness that's where I'd

338
00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:51,470
like to kind of drive things because I

339
00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:53,180
think that's where it gets real

340
00:14:58,180 --> 00:14:55,070
interesting we were just talking a

341
00:14:59,860 --> 00:14:58,190
minute ago about religion and about your

342
00:15:03,910 --> 00:14:59,870
experience in what you've seen in other

343
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:03,920
people and I guess the the maybe counter

344
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:06,320
to that is we need to know as best we

345
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:09,680
can whether there is anything to these

346
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:13,490
claims of consciousness being more than

347
00:15:19,540 --> 00:15:16,850
just our brain because if they are a lot

348
00:15:23,890 --> 00:15:19,550
of these other things that we've kind of

349
00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:23,900
taken as true in terms of scientific

350
00:15:30,010 --> 00:15:27,380
materialism atheistic kind of you kind

351
00:15:31,660 --> 00:15:30,020
of become a lot harder to hold up and

352
00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:31,670
that about that i mean you know if

353
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:35,510
consciousness is outside of our brain

354
00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:37,250
then we have to start asking questions

355
00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:40,390
like when does consciousness start and

356
00:15:45,730 --> 00:15:43,070
obviously when does consciousness end

357
00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:45,740
does it extend beyond and you don't have

358
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:48,950
to go very far with those philosophical

359
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,010
questions obviously to to the point

360
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:54,560
where you reach some deeper spiritual

361
00:15:58,750 --> 00:15:56,090
questions like you were just mentioning

362
00:16:00,520 --> 00:15:58,760
you throw around words like soul and you

363
00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:00,530
even get to God and you get to those

364
00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:03,020
things very quickly so where I've come

365
00:16:09,340 --> 00:16:06,230
at this topic is not to address the

366
00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:09,350
questions of God and soul but to aggress

367
00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:11,720
address the questions of consciousness

368
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:15,190
what do we really know and where is that

369
00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:18,620
research going so that's what I'd like

370
00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:20,990
to outline i guess today and i guess i'd

371
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:23,480
like to find out more about your

372
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,730
thoughts and where you're coming at and

373
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:27,440
saying that you've come to the

374
00:16:33,610 --> 00:16:30,290
conclusion that it's brain-based well

375
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:33,620
you know I was talking to our in raw who

376
00:16:40,810 --> 00:16:37,490
is another YouTube atheist and he has

377
00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:40,820
sampled at the you know the buffet of

378
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:42,500
consciousness social consciousness

379
00:16:49,780 --> 00:16:46,190
enhancing practices you know spiritual

380
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:49,790
whatever you know the world of Wu and he

381
00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:51,770
is you know he's talked about how that

382
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:54,260
in this highly subjective environment

383
00:16:59,830 --> 00:16:57,770
was one time convinced that that you

384
00:17:01,630 --> 00:16:59,840
know you're he could do this he could do

385
00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:01,640
that he broke through different planes

386
00:17:05,890 --> 00:17:03,830
of consciousness and whatnot and at the

387
00:17:06,940 --> 00:17:05,900
end of the day he realized that it was

388
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:06,950
all subjective

389
00:17:13,570 --> 00:17:11,240
it was all very much not based in

390
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:13,580
reality he was he'd done a sales job on

391
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:16,640
his own mind he he had come out the

392
00:17:23,050 --> 00:17:18,530
other end realizing look this is all

393
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:23,060
Justin and I have a I myself have a

394
00:17:35,790 --> 00:17:30,910
difficulty approaching the ideas of of

395
00:17:38,410 --> 00:17:35,800
does consciousness come from without

396
00:17:40,690 --> 00:17:38,420
without a measure of real skepticism

397
00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:40,700
because perception and reality are not

398
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:42,470
necessarily the same thing we talked

399
00:17:48,250 --> 00:17:45,410
about there's a book by Lebanon Kramer

400
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:48,260
about about how even eyewitnesses

401
00:17:54,370 --> 00:17:50,810
perceive things when they witness a

402
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:54,380
crime and that perception is tainted it

403
00:18:00,430 --> 00:17:57,310
tainted by so many subjective things

404
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,440
what I want to know is what you think

405
00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:02,240
you saw I want to know what the evidence

406
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:04,190
says I don't want to start with

407
00:18:07,450 --> 00:18:06,170
everything that might be possible you

408
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:07,460
know we talked about where consciousness

409
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:09,290
comes from well it might come from a

410
00:18:13,450 --> 00:18:12,170
giant pink plush monkey suction cup to

411
00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:13,460
the back of one of Jupiter's moons

412
00:18:18,790 --> 00:18:16,940
that's that's you can't disprove it but

413
00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:18,800
it's not where I want to start what I

414
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:20,390
want to start with it with my feet on

415
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:23,600
the ground and to say what can we see

416
00:18:31,540 --> 00:18:27,020
what can we prove and if there are areas

417
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:31,550
beyond that that are unexplainable as of

418
00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:34,850
yet to me that I don't get I I don't

419
00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:36,590
want to find myself wandering out in the

420
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:38,750
weeds grasping at the first attractive

421
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:41,510
answers that I see I I really would like

422
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:44,000
to know even if I know that I don't know

423
00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:46,580
that's the information i would like

424
00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:49,340
moving forward so I I take a little bit

425
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:51,830
of a harder line when it comes to you

426
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:53,980
know are their energies and and and

427
00:18:59,200 --> 00:18:55,970
external force is guiding our

428
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,210
consciousness my my skeptical nerve

429
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:01,280
tends to start to flare up at that

430
00:19:04,660 --> 00:19:02,870
moment you know I that's something

431
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:04,670
that's especially awakened to me in the

432
00:19:09,490 --> 00:19:07,430
last 36 months no I hear you on that and

433
00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:09,500
it also i guess would probably be a

434
00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:11,780
point where we are in congruence and

435
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:13,100
that's that the one thing that

436
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:16,490
aggravates me is apologetics whether it

437
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:18,880
comes from christian apologetics or

438
00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:20,900
scientific apologetics and

439
00:19:26,620 --> 00:19:23,390
view apologetic says you know starting

440
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:26,630
with my end answer Jesus really was

441
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:29,630
resurrected and then cherry picking out

442
00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:32,750
bits and pieces of science sounding

443
00:19:38,350 --> 00:19:35,630
facts archaeological facts or biblical

444
00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:38,360
scholarship facts to make my case and

445
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:40,280
try and cobble something together and

446
00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:43,250
I'm really really against that but I'm

447
00:19:50,170 --> 00:19:46,540
also against that when it comes to a

448
00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:50,180
scientific approach that does the same

449
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:52,460
thing so I guess that's the second time

450
00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:54,410
that I've heard you play science and

451
00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:56,120
religion sort of side by side in the

452
00:20:01,930 --> 00:19:58,520
horse race and and I don't see them as

453
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:01,940
as compatible I really think we're

454
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:03,890
talking about I mean the scientific

455
00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:05,810
method of use correctly does not start

456
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:07,670
with an answer it follows the chain of

457
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:09,530
evidence it admits when it is wrong and

458
00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:12,530
fixes itself science is a process that

459
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:15,740
is delighted to be wrong and wants to in

460
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:19,310
its purest form wants to fix whatever is

461
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:20,750
wrong so that it can provide better

462
00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:22,490
information I mean science is always

463
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:24,740
updating and revising religion is

464
00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:27,250
pitching the same answers that it had

465
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:30,230
for the last however many thousands of

466
00:20:33,790 --> 00:20:31,910
years and the apologists are now coming

467
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:33,800
out to make excuses for and to give

468
00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:35,840
context of but their arguments largely

469
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:38,600
hasn't changed science changes every day

470
00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:42,230
and so I myself cannot put religion and

471
00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:44,540
science in that in that race they're

472
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:46,670
there they're two different breed two

473
00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:49,010
different animals totally and and I have

474
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,740
a difficult time trying to correlate one

475
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:53,360
with the other because like I believe

476
00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:55,130
they are completely incompatible and

477
00:21:00,940 --> 00:20:57,350
they operate in completely different

478
00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:00,950
ways maybe but I don't want to go there

479
00:21:04,270 --> 00:21:02,060
too far because I think we'll get

480
00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:04,280
sidetracked from the main thing that I

481
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:06,140
wanted to try and engage with you on and

482
00:21:09,970 --> 00:21:08,330
that juris idea of consciousness no but

483
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:09,980
I mean that's a valid point i'd love to

484
00:21:13,930 --> 00:21:12,170
hash that out with you for an hour and

485
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,940
you spend do you spend every show

486
00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:16,400
talking about consciousness I mean every

487
00:21:21,610 --> 00:21:18,830
single episode consciousness related

488
00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:21,620
kind of activities yeah I think that's

489
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:23,900
where it's all at I mean you know I

490
00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:25,730
talked to a bunch of Christians just had

491
00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:28,430
a Christian fell on the last show guy I

492
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:30,320
really enjoyed talking to who's tried to

493
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:32,960
create it this dialogue lecture series

494
00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:34,400
between

495
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:36,440
Christian's and scientists and has done

496
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:37,970
a good job he's over in there in the UK

497
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:39,890
but I've talked to you know some of the

498
00:21:43,930 --> 00:21:42,230
world's leading consciousness

499
00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:43,940
researchers many of them who have a

500
00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:46,550
materialistic kind of view of things but

501
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:48,800
some of them who don't well if you'd

502
00:21:55,870 --> 00:21:53,120
speak to a Christian person who is a

503
00:21:59,200 --> 00:21:55,880
scientist and they are according to the

504
00:22:02,910 --> 00:21:59,210
to the National Institute of Sciences

505
00:22:05,050 --> 00:22:02,920
they are in the extreme minority their

506
00:22:07,030 --> 00:22:05,060
approach to your conversation will

507
00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:07,040
already be tainted by their belief in it

508
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:10,820
in a deity you know they're not now

509
00:22:13,410 --> 00:22:12,320
they're not speaking as much

510
00:22:16,150 --> 00:22:13,420
scientifically they're speaking

511
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:16,160
theologically and if you speak to a

512
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:19,310
scientist a secular scientist about

513
00:22:24,730 --> 00:22:22,130
consciousness you're probably going to

514
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:24,740
be getting a mess i'm wrong a more of a

515
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:27,170
nuts-and-bolts answer that has to do

516
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:29,450
with body chemistry and psychology and

517
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:31,130
and all of these other things not

518
00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:32,510
necessarily so I'll give you an example

519
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:35,630
and this is like one of the one of the

520
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:38,090
pieces of evidence that I'd throw on the

521
00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:40,880
table and ask that we can bring it up

522
00:22:45,580 --> 00:22:43,580
next time so you can dig into it find

523
00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:45,590
out what your position your what your

524
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:48,560
take is on it but I point you to Jeffery

525
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:52,370
Schwartz at UCLA school of medicine what

526
00:22:58,750 --> 00:22:54,080
Schwartz has done and gone even further

527
00:23:02,500 --> 00:22:58,760
is said look I'm a psychiatrist what

528
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:02,510
I've done is shown that a non-physical

529
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:04,610
thought an idea right which is

530
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:06,410
non-physical it doesn't weigh anything

531
00:23:10,810 --> 00:23:09,050
we can't say it's over there in the

532
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:10,820
corner I mean we could say oh these

533
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:12,350
little there's these little neurons in

534
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,200
your brain that hold that idea but we

535
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:17,360
understand that's not really that idea

536
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:18,770
because I can write that idea down on a

537
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:20,690
piece of paper and hand it to someone

538
00:23:25,740 --> 00:23:22,910
else and they can get that idea and at

539
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:25,750
some point there's some in material

540
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:28,310
non-physical transfer that goes on there

541
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:31,250
so as a starting point we can say ideas

542
00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:34,010
are non-physical but what Schwartz has

543
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:37,580
shown is the thought or an idea can

544
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:39,470
actually change the physical structure

545
00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:43,130
of your brain how your brain works so

546
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:46,280
this presents a real challenge for folks

547
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:47,120
who

548
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:50,720
are sticking to this mind equals brain

549
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:54,080
kind of formula do you understand where

550
00:23:59,290 --> 00:23:56,210
I'm going there I don't know that you

551
00:24:01,060 --> 00:23:59,300
can say with as little I mean we know a

552
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:01,070
lot about the brain but with so much we

553
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:02,480
have to learn I don't think you can say

554
00:24:07,150 --> 00:24:04,970
that an idea is not physical I mean it

555
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:07,160
is contained within the physical brain

556
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:09,770
and there are properties that will that

557
00:24:15,130 --> 00:24:11,150
are even if we don't know them yet our

558
00:24:17,860 --> 00:24:15,140
are I believe anyway I think and I think

559
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:17,870
eventually science will prove that that

560
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:19,910
the neural activity has a physical

561
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:23,110
explanation wildly wildly complicated

562
00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:25,490
explanation but an explanation so the

563
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:28,670
idea that that it because it is in our

564
00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:30,530
mind and abstract that's not a femur

565
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:32,540
bone it's not a heart or a liver or

566
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:35,840
spleen it's it's something else but it

567
00:24:41,290 --> 00:24:39,260
it is generated by the brain and and how

568
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:41,300
our brain functions does affect it

569
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:44,440
affects it affects all I mean people who

570
00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:46,490
you know it's just like people who hold

571
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:50,390
a specific disposition tend to often get

572
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:52,850
well from sickness faster than those who

573
00:24:56,020 --> 00:24:54,290
are more negative you know those who

574
00:24:58,419 --> 00:24:56,030
have more positive thoughts I honestly

575
00:25:01,530 --> 00:24:58,429
do believe that the brain what you think

576
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:01,540
how you think how you see the world can

577
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:03,770
affect you physically but I don't

578
00:25:09,870 --> 00:25:06,110
necessarily hold to the fact that that

579
00:25:12,370 --> 00:25:09,880
an idea cannot be physically explained

580
00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:12,380
okay again you're talking to a guy who's

581
00:25:17,020 --> 00:25:15,350
not a neuroscientist and in my mind Alex

582
00:25:18,820 --> 00:25:17,030
just from listening and I know you know

583
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,830
you probably deal with this week Lisa

584
00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:20,000
don't let me get into your wheelhouse

585
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:23,270
but but you seem eager to ascribe an

586
00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:26,330
external explanation for I mean you see

587
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:30,580
a does it do you believe that there is

588
00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:35,090
the force is this is there an entity of

589
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:38,720
being a mu ha how or where are you going

590
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:41,780
with the sort of the inference is that

591
00:25:45,310 --> 00:25:43,760
there's an external force or an

592
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:45,320
unexplainable force that guides

593
00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:46,760
consciousness and are those

594
00:25:50,919 --> 00:25:48,920
consciousness is connected are you

595
00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:50,929
getting all Deepak Chopra on me here

596
00:25:54,010 --> 00:25:52,550
hoping I'm just curious what your

597
00:25:56,169 --> 00:25:54,020
perspective is the HOS did you know I

598
00:25:57,340 --> 00:25:56,179
think thing is I feel an agenda going on

599
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:57,350
and I just want to know are you trying

600
00:26:02,230 --> 00:26:00,559
to convince me what well I

601
00:26:04,419 --> 00:26:02,240
think I've kind of laid out what I'm

602
00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:04,429
trying to do in terms of you know I want

603
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:06,080
to lay out where I'm going to come at

604
00:26:10,029 --> 00:26:08,450
your from irama to challenge you on or

605
00:26:11,529 --> 00:26:10,039
ask you to go yeah I don't mind being

606
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:11,539
challenged that's cool but I mean are

607
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:15,200
you a believer in like is it a divine

608
00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:18,110
consciousness is it a spirit energy

609
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:21,529
lines that I mean that's the dialogue

610
00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:26,330
that I think we so often get into in our

611
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:28,220
culture or just on the internet or

612
00:26:35,049 --> 00:26:31,129
wherever that really sidetracks us from

613
00:26:37,570 --> 00:26:35,059
trying to pin down the truth that all

614
00:26:40,269 --> 00:26:37,580
that stuff flows from if the evidence

615
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:40,279
suggests that consciousness is solely a

616
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:43,700
product of the brain then I would from

617
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:46,190
that draw a whole bunch of conclusions

618
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:48,289
but in looking at the data I see the

619
00:26:52,779 --> 00:26:50,690
data is just the opposite I mean Jeffery

620
00:26:55,629 --> 00:26:52,789
Schwartz isn't the only one here out on

621
00:26:57,999 --> 00:26:55,639
a limb I mean the idea of materialism

622
00:27:00,970 --> 00:26:58,009
being dead is floating around there at

623
00:27:04,239 --> 00:27:00,980
least with a dozen books from some very

624
00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:04,249
prominent authors believe that but I'll

625
00:27:09,310 --> 00:27:06,049
just point you to this whole topic of

626
00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:09,320
neuroplasticity and Jeffery Schwartz and

627
00:27:12,489 --> 00:27:10,879
a million other people have kind of

628
00:27:14,379 --> 00:27:12,499
looked at this thing so that the second

629
00:27:16,810 --> 00:27:14,389
place I'd look is I don't know if you're

630
00:27:18,820 --> 00:27:16,820
familiar with dr. Richard Wiseman from

631
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:18,830
the UK but it's very popular on The

632
00:27:24,879 --> 00:27:22,730
Skeptical circuit on the Atheist circuit

633
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:24,889
in terms of being a researcher in

634
00:27:30,609 --> 00:27:27,490
psychology very well known in the UK and

635
00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:30,619
so here's the quote from him that I

636
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:33,350
think to me is really the deal breaker

637
00:27:39,869 --> 00:27:36,799
and this is it I agree that by the

638
00:27:43,389 --> 00:27:39,879
standards of any other area of science

639
00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:43,399
sigh that is ESP remote viewing all

640
00:27:48,909 --> 00:27:46,940
those things is proven but that begs the

641
00:27:52,299 --> 00:27:48,919
question do we need higher standards of

642
00:27:55,419 --> 00:27:52,309
evidence when we study the paranormal so

643
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:55,429
what this quote to me and he said it

644
00:27:59,379 --> 00:27:56,960
more than once you actually set the

645
00:28:01,690 --> 00:27:59,389
first time and then someone was so in

646
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:01,700
disbelief that he had said it the Daily

647
00:28:05,919 --> 00:28:03,769
Mail in the UK interviewed him again and

648
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:05,929
they've published his quote again and he

649
00:28:09,999 --> 00:28:07,369
broadened it and said yeah well I wasn't

650
00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:10,009
just talking about remote viewing this

651
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:12,350
idea that we can see things with our

652
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:13,810
psychic mind

653
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:15,760
our but he said he was also talking

654
00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:19,600
about all the ESP and sire related

655
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:22,420
research so you know here's a guy who's

656
00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:25,510
very skeptical if you will coming out

657
00:28:31,890 --> 00:28:28,120
and saying that this stuff is proven and

658
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:31,900
of course the idea of ESP and remote

659
00:28:37,650 --> 00:28:34,870
viewing completely violates the mind

660
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:37,660
equal brain formula so are you at all

661
00:28:42,750 --> 00:28:40,570
familiar with this kind of stuff I've

662
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:42,760
never heard of him but that's all right

663
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:44,320
i mean i hadn't heard of a great many

664
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:47,170
people just a few years ago I'm

665
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,320
certainly not familiar with anyone in

666
00:28:57,420 --> 00:28:52,960
the atheist or skeptical community who

667
00:29:01,440 --> 00:28:57,430
is in favor of promoting endorsing that

668
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:01,450
kind of speech it doesn't sound like

669
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:05,760
something that mainstream atheists

670
00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:08,620
scientists or researchers are are

671
00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:12,220
embracing it sounds like one guy you

672
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:14,470
know you just hold off on that because I

673
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:15,910
don't want you to go too far on that

674
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:18,070
because he's you know he's at the

675
00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:20,110
skeptic obviously I've got this little

676
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:21,640
alarm to just pee pee but you're gonna

677
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:23,770
say no wait a minute where doug's out

678
00:29:27,030 --> 00:29:25,570
what science up I mean you just go find

679
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:27,040
all that out I don't want you to commit

680
00:29:32,490 --> 00:29:29,170
to saying anything but he's at you sure

681
00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:32,500
he's at skepticon he's at the j RF he's

682
00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:34,600
at all those very very prominent in the

683
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:37,030
skeptical community you'll I think you

684
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:39,730
will recognize him once you see his name

685
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:41,200
down there and but it's kind of

686
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:43,090
interesting also to hear somebody fresh

687
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:45,610
their first take on that says gee what

688
00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:47,260
he's really saying is that this stuff is

689
00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:49,030
proven and that is what he's saying and

690
00:29:52,770 --> 00:29:50,740
then what he's saying further of course

691
00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:52,780
is the part that people like to jump on

692
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:54,670
and say yeah but he's saying you know we

693
00:30:00,420 --> 00:29:57,010
got to be really really really sure

694
00:30:01,980 --> 00:30:00,430
before we change everything for that and

695
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:01,990
that to me I guess is that sounds like

696
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:03,790
apologetics you know saying hey do we

697
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:06,490
need a higher standard of evidence than

698
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:08,650
we normally use in science because this

699
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:10,570
doesn't go against our belief systems so

700
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:12,970
that would be I guess apart to dialogue

701
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:15,010
is isn't that really apologetics when

702
00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:16,480
you start saying hey we need a different

703
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:17,950
standard of evidence because on this

704
00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:19,540
doesn't quite go with the way that I

705
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:21,670
want to see things but you can pull that

706
00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:23,530
apart how you want and then we'll see

707
00:30:27,529 --> 00:30:25,780
what you have to say well I don't you

708
00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:27,539
know I know again I'm not familiar with

709
00:30:36,289 --> 00:30:32,220
if someone is saying I you need a

710
00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:36,299
different measuring stick so that all of

711
00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:37,830
these puzzle pieces will now fit

712
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:39,720
together the way I want them to again

713
00:30:43,969 --> 00:30:41,039
that's not science and I have a

714
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:43,979
difficult time you know honestly

715
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:45,720
thinking that somebody invited to

716
00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:49,919
skepticon or a tam or what have you

717
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:53,100
would be someone who would it would

718
00:30:57,169 --> 00:30:55,830
subscribe to that kind of thinking so

719
00:30:59,599 --> 00:30:57,179
that'll be an interesting one to see

720
00:31:01,129 --> 00:30:59,609
where you wind up with that I'll send

721
00:31:02,299 --> 00:31:01,139
you everything you need on that and

722
00:31:04,639 --> 00:31:02,309
we'll see where you wind up there and

723
00:31:06,529 --> 00:31:04,649
then the third area that I think I'd

724
00:31:09,129 --> 00:31:06,539
like to talk about that I think provides

725
00:31:13,009 --> 00:31:09,139
the most direct kind of in-your-face

726
00:31:15,739 --> 00:31:13,019
evidence if you will that maybe mind is

727
00:31:18,379 --> 00:31:15,749
more than brain is the whole near-death

728
00:31:20,419 --> 00:31:18,389
experience science we've spent a lot of

729
00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:20,429
time with it on this show of interviewed

730
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:22,769
some of the leading researchers in the

731
00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:26,090
field and as well have interviewed many

732
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:29,309
people who are more skeptical of some of

733
00:31:32,659 --> 00:31:30,690
the science or the interpretation the

734
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,669
science now I don't know how familiar

735
00:31:37,129 --> 00:31:34,799
you are with the whole near-death

736
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:37,139
experience thing but what seems to be

737
00:31:42,169 --> 00:31:39,090
pretty well established is that number

738
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:42,179
one it happens people wind up in the

739
00:31:49,489 --> 00:31:46,080
hospital they dive and then they come

740
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:49,499
back our resuscitated and recall these

741
00:31:56,989 --> 00:31:52,710
amazing encounters that they had they

742
00:31:59,210 --> 00:31:56,999
are hyper conscious hyper lucid during a

743
00:32:02,089 --> 00:31:59,220
time that their brain is severely

744
00:32:06,379 --> 00:32:02,099
compromised if not completely gone and

745
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:06,389
that's medically inexplicable are you at

746
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:08,609
all familiar with the whole near-death

747
00:32:14,239 --> 00:32:12,570
experience thing I am and honestly you

748
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:14,249
sound like you trying to convince me in

749
00:32:21,499 --> 00:32:18,570
in good luck again we're talking about

750
00:32:24,469 --> 00:32:21,509
perception and perception and reality do

751
00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:24,479
not necessarily intersect I mean I you

752
00:32:28,849 --> 00:32:26,340
know I was doing a podcast last year and

753
00:32:31,969 --> 00:32:28,859
I had somebody who would say a nurse we

754
00:32:34,159 --> 00:32:31,979
talked about and they and this gives a

755
00:32:35,659 --> 00:32:34,169
guy he had his own near-death experience

756
00:32:36,919 --> 00:32:35,669
he was actually dead on the table for I

757
00:32:38,629 --> 00:32:36,929
don't know how long and he talked about

758
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:38,639
you know the white light and all of that

759
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:40,530
and is like it was hypoxia

760
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:42,120
I mean you know you can see you can you

761
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:44,010
can replicated you and then when people

762
00:32:50,030 --> 00:32:46,170
come back and they say well I saw this i

763
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:50,040
felt that i experienced whatever I you

764
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:52,320
know I you can't tell me it didn't

765
00:33:00,050 --> 00:32:55,200
happen well yeah I can tell you that

766
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:00,060
that you know that you saw angels and a

767
00:33:05,150 --> 00:33:03,210
dead relative or a friendly heard a

768
00:33:09,140 --> 00:33:05,160
friendly voice or floated above the room

769
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:09,150
or whatnot yeah sure but what what

770
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:10,440
you're bringing to me now is a

771
00:33:17,420 --> 00:33:12,750
subjective first-person account that is

772
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:17,430
unverifiable highly highly subjected to

773
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:20,250
the chemical actions and reactions of a

774
00:33:25,730 --> 00:33:24,240
brain that is dying and you're passing

775
00:33:30,050 --> 00:33:25,740
it off as fact well that's not science

776
00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:30,060
and you know Stanley Corinne and Michael

777
00:33:35,290 --> 00:33:31,830
Persinger have replicated many of those

778
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:35,300
god experiences using magnets in a lab

779
00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:38,730
so you know for this entire conversation

780
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:40,350
while I mean I've certainly enjoyed

781
00:33:45,170 --> 00:33:43,200
myself we're we're starting in the

782
00:33:47,090 --> 00:33:45,180
abstract and then I'm hearing all these

783
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:47,100
assertions that and so many scientists

784
00:33:50,420 --> 00:33:48,510
have come and proven it and so many

785
00:33:51,770 --> 00:33:50,430
scientists agree and so many scientists

786
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:51,780
have written books well look in my

787
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:54,960
circle and I'm in a heavy a secular

788
00:34:01,220 --> 00:33:58,050
circle where where the majority of

789
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:01,230
scientists and neurologists and even you

790
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:03,330
know people like Michael Shermer is a

791
00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:05,370
great example somebody who has written

792
00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:06,990
books like the believing brain in the

793
00:34:10,340 --> 00:34:08,550
talks about the subjective ways that

794
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:10,350
people perceive and receive and why they

795
00:34:14,210 --> 00:34:12,090
believe these odd things their

796
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:14,220
scientific explanations it it doesn't

797
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:17,040
mean that any of these I saw I felt I

798
00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:19,770
heard I experience there was a tingling

799
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:22,080
on the back of my neck stuff it's not

800
00:34:27,950 --> 00:34:24,810
science and it doesn't necessarily need

801
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:27,960
to be taken incredible seriously on its

802
00:34:31,399 --> 00:34:30,210
face value we need to look and

803
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:31,409
understand that you're looking at

804
00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:33,330
somebody who is having a chemical

805
00:34:38,990 --> 00:34:35,669
reaction and and coming back and talking

806
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:39,000
about perception and so I you know I I

807
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:40,740
don't buy it I think you're talking

808
00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:42,450
about something that's explainable that

809
00:34:47,659 --> 00:34:45,000
has a physical explanation that is

810
00:34:49,850 --> 00:34:47,669
certainly not proof of I don't know if

811
00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:49,860
you're going for God or just a spirit

812
00:34:54,270 --> 00:34:51,720
plane of some kind I mean are you a

813
00:34:56,649 --> 00:34:54,280
believer in the deity do you have a guy

814
00:34:58,540 --> 00:34:56,659
again you know I can go there and I'm

815
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,550
happy to have that conversation with you

816
00:35:03,550 --> 00:35:00,880
i'm just-just do you believe in a god

817
00:35:05,290 --> 00:35:03,560
welcome well let me just answer the

818
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:05,300
first part okay the way I want to answer

819
00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:07,310
it and then I'll answer your question

820
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:10,280
directly okay well yeah I'm not really

821
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:12,170
sure why someone would dodge that that

822
00:35:17,050 --> 00:35:14,030
particular question is not an accusation

823
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:17,060
is your baby but here's my point because

824
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:18,530
I think this is really the point of this

825
00:35:23,650 --> 00:35:20,960
dialogue is that this is how things get

826
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:23,660
sidetracked is we want to jump to the

827
00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:25,730
end and we want to say oh you know we

828
00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:27,260
want to start identifying you and saying

829
00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:29,420
oh you're a creationist or anything I'm

830
00:35:33,580 --> 00:35:31,460
just saying I'm not confusing you I'm

831
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:33,590
not interested in any of that what I

832
00:35:39,970 --> 00:35:36,560
want to know is when I hear such a

833
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:39,980
targeted line of inquiry that is pushing

834
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:43,760
me to to really step in toward more of

835
00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:45,440
the spiritual right you're you're saying

836
00:35:49,210 --> 00:35:47,630
look so many scientists some so much of

837
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:49,220
the evidence which has not been my

838
00:35:55,180 --> 00:35:51,920
experience then obviously I as the

839
00:35:57,220 --> 00:35:55,190
interviewee want to know more about you

840
00:35:59,860 --> 00:35:57,230
know who dialed me up and who wants to

841
00:36:03,070 --> 00:35:59,870
know more about me Who am I speaking

842
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:03,080
with what drives you and so I'm not

843
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:05,270
asking you to blow your wad I'm asking

844
00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:07,610
you art do you come at me from a deistic

845
00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:10,700
or theistic point of view and are you

846
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:13,460
trying to then convert me oh not at all

847
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:16,010
and again I'm going to go back to the

848
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:18,170
beginning Seth because where I'm really

849
00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:21,770
coming at you from is exactly what I

850
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:25,960
said which is this silly sideshow

851
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:28,370
conversation that always dominates

852
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:32,170
center stage is science versus religion

853
00:36:37,930 --> 00:36:35,030
Christianity versus non Christianity and

854
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:37,940
to me the questions are much deeper than

855
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:40,250
that and really boil down to one

856
00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:44,720
question is your mind purely a function

857
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:48,200
of your brain because if it's not then

858
00:36:53,860 --> 00:36:51,410
we start having to introduce all these

859
00:36:56,410 --> 00:36:53,870
other topics that do kind of make us

860
00:36:59,050 --> 00:36:56,420
uneasy because they start sounding very

861
00:37:01,570 --> 00:36:59,060
spiritual and I think what we have to do

862
00:37:03,250 --> 00:37:01,580
is steal ourselves against that and say

863
00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:03,260
wait a minute guys I want to push

864
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:05,390
everything else off the table and I

865
00:37:09,820 --> 00:37:07,310
really want to focus on this

866
00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:09,830
one question and I want to think deeply

867
00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:12,740
about it I want to challenge everything

868
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:14,420
I don't want to take anyone's word for

869
00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:16,370
it all these things right out of your

870
00:37:22,330 --> 00:37:19,160
PlayBook and I really want to be very

871
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:22,340
skeptical about it so you know the third

872
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,650
way that I'd come at this and and yeah I

873
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:26,720
mean I guess I'm trying to convince you

874
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:29,330
in as much as whenever we dialogue like

875
00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:31,970
this we're trying to put our best foot

876
00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:34,430
forward and our advance our best cause

877
00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:37,940
but you know Michael Shermer is a is a

878
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:39,830
good nice enough guy he's been on the

879
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:42,710
show a long time ago but he's a

880
00:37:47,650 --> 00:37:45,680
historian he's not a scientist he

881
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:47,660
certainly never studied near-death

882
00:37:51,790 --> 00:37:49,730
experience and as a matter of fact his

883
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:51,800
history on that in terms of writing is

884
00:37:58,360 --> 00:37:53,810
quite embarrassing and that he wrote for

885
00:38:00,940 --> 00:37:58,370
Scientific American a critique of some

886
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:00,950
of the most important research in this

887
00:38:08,050 --> 00:38:04,340
area published by a cardiologist named

888
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:08,060
pin Van LOM oh that did a 20 year very

889
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:10,880
respected study in the Netherlands

890
00:38:14,590 --> 00:38:13,010
published it in The Lancet one of the

891
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:14,600
most highly regarded journals and

892
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:16,700
shermer comes out and writes this

893
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:19,370
article and says hey look at this this

894
00:38:25,690 --> 00:38:22,760
shows that these near-death experiences

895
00:38:28,270 --> 00:38:25,700
are nothing well schirmer completely got

896
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:28,280
it wrong so much to the point that pin

897
00:38:34,570 --> 00:38:30,650
van lama took it upon himself to write a

898
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:34,580
response and say hey you not only you

899
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:36,530
know didn't capture my research

900
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:38,510
correctly in your writing but you

901
00:38:44,070 --> 00:38:41,510
exactly got the wrong conclusion than we

902
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:44,080
came to and then there's never any

903
00:38:49,630 --> 00:38:47,210
correction from shores part so i'll

904
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:49,640
provide you it's not fair to say that

905
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:52,550
schirmer's a historian they meet his

906
00:38:58,750 --> 00:38:54,170
degrees are in biology and psychology

907
00:39:00,430 --> 00:38:58,760
and and he is an expert in his field she

908
00:39:03,070 --> 00:39:00,440
isn't is pitched i thought was in

909
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,080
history i'm willing to be wrong on that

910
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:06,320
yeah he does have a PhD I want to say

911
00:39:12,910 --> 00:39:09,650
it's in I know he started in seminary he

912
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:12,920
actually started as a believer but he he

913
00:39:19,860 --> 00:39:15,290
has a bachelor's in psychology and

914
00:39:21,309 --> 00:39:19,870
biology from Pepperdine and he is a

915
00:39:24,370 --> 00:39:21,319
skeptic

916
00:39:30,479 --> 00:39:24,380
and his career his job his life's work

917
00:39:33,009 --> 00:39:30,489
is exploring and often exposing a

918
00:39:35,289 --> 00:39:33,019
psychic phenomena and everything from

919
00:39:37,150 --> 00:39:35,299
homeopathy to you know to people who

920
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:37,160
have these wild claims of miracles the

921
00:39:42,849 --> 00:39:39,440
bleeding statue of the Virgin Mary I

922
00:39:44,289 --> 00:39:42,859
mean he to marginalize his work and I'm

923
00:39:46,269 --> 00:39:44,299
saying he's perfect but I'm saying to

924
00:39:48,059 --> 00:39:46,279
marginalize his work I mean yeah he's a

925
00:39:51,489 --> 00:39:48,069
historian of science that's what he is

926
00:39:53,189 --> 00:39:51,499
it is it's it's not necessarily a new

927
00:39:56,620 --> 00:39:53,199
thing for people to say you can't

928
00:39:58,599 --> 00:39:56,630
understand abstract consciousness that's

929
00:40:02,099 --> 00:39:58,609
not a new argument but to say that the

930
00:40:05,979 --> 00:40:02,109
reputable science community is

931
00:40:09,789 --> 00:40:05,989
advocating that there must be a conduit

932
00:40:11,859 --> 00:40:09,799
of spirit out there that is responsible

933
00:40:13,390 --> 00:40:11,869
I don't think that's accurate I don't

934
00:40:15,069 --> 00:40:13,400
think it's reflected by mainstream

935
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:15,079
especially secular scientists who are

936
00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:17,209
the majority and I think if you spend

937
00:40:21,099 --> 00:40:19,190
that much time you playing what if

938
00:40:22,890 --> 00:40:21,109
you'll drive yourself nuts I think you

939
00:40:24,969 --> 00:40:22,900
start the argument from elsewhere I

940
00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:24,979
think you know you start to look at

941
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:26,390
brain chemistry you start to look at

942
00:40:28,930 --> 00:40:27,650
psychology you start to look at

943
00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:28,940
intelligence you start to look at

944
00:40:32,289 --> 00:40:30,380
culture and perception and all these

945
00:40:33,759 --> 00:40:32,299
other widely complicated things and you

946
00:40:37,539 --> 00:40:33,769
start there and see what you come up

947
00:40:40,269 --> 00:40:37,549
with well that is exactly why I wanted

948
00:40:42,370 --> 00:40:40,279
to do this interview in two parts

949
00:40:45,459 --> 00:40:42,380
because I have to tell you in the

950
00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:45,469
dialogues I've had we always get to this

951
00:40:52,930 --> 00:40:49,160
point which is you know we have to dig

952
00:40:55,420 --> 00:40:52,940
through all the opinions that we might

953
00:40:58,839 --> 00:40:55,430
have beliefs we might have and try and

954
00:41:00,819 --> 00:40:58,849
do as good a job as we can of getting

955
00:41:03,249 --> 00:41:00,829
down to the science getting down to the

956
00:41:05,769 --> 00:41:03,259
scientific evidence and understanding it

957
00:41:07,299 --> 00:41:05,779
the best we can so what you're talking

958
00:41:09,549 --> 00:41:07,309
to the wrong guy man I mean you really

959
00:41:11,049 --> 00:41:09,559
do you need no you need psychologists

960
00:41:12,759 --> 00:41:11,059
you need neurologists you need people

961
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:12,769
who are experts in the brain but at the

962
00:41:15,819 --> 00:41:14,209
end of the day Seth I've talked all

963
00:41:17,769 --> 00:41:15,829
those people at the end of the day I

964
00:41:20,319 --> 00:41:17,779
mean ahmed i'm an ex radio disc jockey

965
00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:20,329
and video producer and host of and i

966
00:41:24,999 --> 00:41:22,190
think i've done it a lot of digging a

967
00:41:26,979 --> 00:41:25,009
lot of a lot of digging right so I'm end

968
00:41:29,349 --> 00:41:26,989
of the day at the end of the day we got

969
00:41:32,769 --> 00:41:29,359
to bring all that stuff back up and see

970
00:41:35,099 --> 00:41:32,779
if it can answer these questions see if

971
00:41:38,759 --> 00:41:35,109
it can engage us in this

972
00:41:40,319 --> 00:41:38,769
log in a deeper way so that's that's my

973
00:41:42,509 --> 00:41:40,329
point so I talked about Richard Wiseman

974
00:41:44,430 --> 00:41:42,519
you're not familiar with Richard Wiseman

975
00:41:47,069 --> 00:41:44,440
great go get from New Earth Richard

976
00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:47,079
Wiseman see what he has to say about ESP

977
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:49,150
I'm telling you about the near death

978
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:50,670
experience and I'm telling you that

979
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:53,200
overwhelmingly hypocrisy has been

980
00:41:57,059 --> 00:41:55,450
dismissed as a possible explanation and

981
00:41:59,339 --> 00:41:57,069
that no one goes there and that I've

982
00:42:02,099 --> 00:41:59,349
interviewed sue Blackmore or so you're a

983
00:42:04,349 --> 00:42:02,109
believer then in extrasensory perception

984
00:42:06,839 --> 00:42:04,359
you believe in ESP personally personally

985
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:06,849
as I'm not lying yes no question is so

986
00:42:11,069 --> 00:42:09,130
complicated for you personally Jerry

987
00:42:14,279 --> 00:42:11,079
personally is kind of I don't have any

988
00:42:16,799 --> 00:42:14,289
personal experience with ESP I think the

989
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:16,809
over evidence is overwhelmingly

990
00:42:21,059 --> 00:42:18,880
suggestive that that does happen that

991
00:42:23,279 --> 00:42:21,069
there is some form of extended humid

992
00:42:25,259 --> 00:42:23,289
consciousness that does occur in this

993
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:25,269
way I mean it just that's what the

994
00:42:30,450 --> 00:42:26,710
evidence shows I don't know what that

995
00:42:33,479 --> 00:42:30,460
means so I'm saying let's engage in a

996
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:33,489
real dialogue a level-two dialogue that

997
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:35,170
gets past this well this is what I

998
00:42:38,009 --> 00:42:36,670
believe and I've already researched it

999
00:42:39,479 --> 00:42:38,019
and me saying well this is what I

1000
00:42:42,089 --> 00:42:39,489
believe and I've already researched it

1001
00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:42,099
let's swap stories about what we've

1002
00:42:46,979 --> 00:42:44,950
researched and why we think we know what

1003
00:42:50,670 --> 00:42:46,989
we know and then let's get back together

1004
00:42:53,009 --> 00:42:50,680
and see to what extent your world view

1005
00:42:56,930 --> 00:42:53,019
changes or my world view changes I'm

1006
00:43:01,140 --> 00:42:56,940
still stuck on ESP I'm still stuck on it

1007
00:43:04,729 --> 00:43:01,150
I'm great man go go check out and stuck

1008
00:43:08,759 --> 00:43:04,739
on it I honestly think if I mean I lump

1009
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:08,769
ESPN with astral projection with visions

1010
00:43:15,749 --> 00:43:12,910
with crystals with I myself think that

1011
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:15,759
this is a profound waste of time and

1012
00:43:20,539 --> 00:43:18,970
energy but to me you know superstition

1013
00:43:23,759 --> 00:43:20,549
and religion they go hand in hand

1014
00:43:25,710 --> 00:43:23,769
superstition and science do not and I

1015
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:25,720
don't place them side by side they are

1016
00:43:29,220 --> 00:43:27,609
not dead fellows they are not partners

1017
00:43:33,359 --> 00:43:29,230
they are not friends religion is

1018
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:33,369
incompatible with science and so I cast

1019
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:36,910
my lot with science with science is a

1020
00:43:42,299 --> 00:43:40,450
method it is not a position as my friend

1021
00:43:44,789 --> 00:43:42,309
likes to say and no truer statement has

1022
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:44,799
ever made so we can't really wrap

1023
00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:47,470
ourselves in the cloak of science it's

1024
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:48,700
just a sign

1025
00:43:53,339 --> 00:43:51,310
tools in a box exact because it's a suit

1026
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:53,349
look I want to live in the cause of it's

1027
00:43:59,099 --> 00:43:56,170
a set of tools that it's a set of tools

1028
00:44:02,609 --> 00:43:59,109
it doesn't mean anything it's just a way

1029
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:02,619
of inquiry we can't say that it leads us

1030
00:44:07,319 --> 00:44:04,930
to some conclusion we can just say it's

1031
00:44:09,540 --> 00:44:07,329
a method of dis absolutely science will

1032
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:09,550
lead you to say I think you and I are

1033
00:44:13,050 --> 00:44:11,950
simply approaching the term science from

1034
00:44:14,490 --> 00:44:13,060
different perspectives and you'll need

1035
00:44:16,349 --> 00:44:14,500
to forgive me I've only got a moment but

1036
00:44:17,490 --> 00:44:16,359
I'd like to continue I informed you

1037
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:17,500
before the interview I got a tennis

1038
00:44:22,020 --> 00:44:20,530
match so I'm not I'm not ducking the

1039
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:22,030
conversation I want to make sure that

1040
00:44:27,060 --> 00:44:23,530
people don't think oh my god is leaving

1041
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:27,070
but I myself think that's exactly the

1042
00:44:31,109 --> 00:44:29,170
way you do it if I if I use the cause

1043
00:44:32,849 --> 00:44:31,119
and effect science evidence based method

1044
00:44:34,859 --> 00:44:32,859
yeah that does lead me to understanding

1045
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:34,869
that does help me weed out the detritus

1046
00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:37,599
and and embrace what is sound has a

1047
00:44:41,609 --> 00:44:39,670
sound foundation and I think it is a

1048
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:41,619
great way to live one's life you know to

1049
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:44,290
live with an evidence-based perspective

1050
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:47,440
I think I think that I I do embrace that

1051
00:44:52,260 --> 00:44:49,810
in in every area of my life that I can

1052
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:52,270
why don't we leave it there with the

1053
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:54,550
promise that I am going to give you some

1054
00:44:59,819 --> 00:44:56,770
evidence and hopefully you'll give me

1055
00:45:01,710 --> 00:44:59,829
some evidence in response to that and I

1056
00:45:03,059 --> 00:45:01,720
really look forward to having you know

1057
00:45:04,980 --> 00:45:03,069
reconvening because that's when I think

1058
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:04,990
the dialogue gets interesting gets

1059
00:45:11,730 --> 00:45:08,410
beyond what we believe right now and

1060
00:45:13,290 --> 00:45:11,740
gets to where our beliefs might move in

1061
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:13,300
the future which is I think what the

1062
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:17,650
whole process is all about well yeah or

1063
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:20,880
how about what we know what we can prove

1064
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:23,470
that's what I'm more interested in you

1065
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:26,140
know and it that's saying that's

1066
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:27,910
semantics right i mean we're saying

1067
00:45:31,980 --> 00:45:30,160
follow the evidence and then you develop

1068
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,990
beliefs from that evidence i mean the

1069
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:34,000
evidence is never going to be one

1070
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:35,890
hundred percent I better let you go

1071
00:45:38,910 --> 00:45:37,810
because I'm a tennis player too and

1072
00:45:40,319 --> 00:45:38,920
you're going to need some warm-up time

1073
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:40,329
especially after that nap well I

1074
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:41,890
appreciate the conversation the

1075
00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:43,450
opportunity to be involved you and I

1076
00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:45,550
stand probably on opposite sides of this

1077
00:45:48,690 --> 00:45:46,990
particular topic but it has been an

1078
00:45:51,130 --> 00:45:48,700
interesting discussion and I appreciate

1079
00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:51,140
the chance to be involved in it

1080
00:45:56,330 --> 00:45:53,790
thanks again to Seth Andrews for joining

1081
00:45:59,480 --> 00:45:56,340
me today on skeptic oh well as you might

1082
00:46:03,080 --> 00:45:59,490
imagine I have quite a bit to say about

1083
00:46:04,850 --> 00:46:03,090
that first interview now I had initially

1084
00:46:06,350 --> 00:46:04,860
thought that I'd wait to get both

1085
00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:06,360
interviews and publish them both

1086
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:09,960
together but after emailing Seth we

1087
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,250
decided that I should go ahead and

1088
00:46:16,430 --> 00:46:13,920
publish this first one get some listener

1089
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:16,440
response and then we can follow up with

1090
00:46:22,730 --> 00:46:20,310
number two hopefully I say hopefully

1091
00:46:25,850 --> 00:46:22,740
because as you've seen on skeptic Oh a

1092
00:46:28,670 --> 00:46:25,860
lot of times hardcore skeptics hardcore

1093
00:46:30,290 --> 00:46:28,680
atheist usually run like heck when

1094
00:46:33,110 --> 00:46:30,300
they're really challenged in a debate

1095
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:33,120
but hopefully we'll get Seth back on and

1096
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:35,640
have a good in-depth debate on these

1097
00:46:41,210 --> 00:46:37,980
points but I first want to go over if I

1098
00:46:43,550 --> 00:46:41,220
can and really T up what my points are

1099
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:43,560
so that seth has a real chance to

1100
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:46,710
respond when he comes back on so here

1101
00:46:52,340 --> 00:46:49,310
are the four points that map out my

1102
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:52,350
territory my position in this debate Oh

1103
00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:56,400
point one the core scientific question

1104
00:47:02,570 --> 00:46:59,640
behind a theam is does mind equal brain

1105
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:02,580
this is a simple proposition but as you

1106
00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:05,040
heard in this first discussion it's

1107
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:07,320
really hard for atheists and a lot of

1108
00:47:10,970 --> 00:47:08,910
folks to wrap their head around this

1109
00:47:12,770 --> 00:47:10,980
Seth wanted to get sidetracked on

1110
00:47:15,020 --> 00:47:12,780
whether I believe in God or I'm hearing

1111
00:47:16,340 --> 00:47:15,030
voices and he didn't say it not sure he

1112
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:16,350
would eventually have gotten around to

1113
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:18,690
ask me whether I believe in evolution or

1114
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:21,210
Noah's Ark or other stuff like that but

1115
00:47:25,730 --> 00:47:23,370
all this stuff is aside you it's a

1116
00:47:28,220 --> 00:47:25,740
distraction what Seth doesn't realize is

1117
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:28,230
that there's this implied assumption in

1118
00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:30,480
the Atheist position the implied

1119
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:33,600
assumption is what we call materialism

1120
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:36,930
so I don't usually go to Wikipedia for

1121
00:47:41,930 --> 00:47:39,690
information for various reasons but here

1122
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:41,940
is the Wikipedia definition for

1123
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:44,400
materialism the theory of materialism

1124
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:47,750
holds that only matter or energy exists

1125
00:47:52,570 --> 00:47:50,730
that all things are composed of material

1126
00:47:54,740 --> 00:47:52,580
and that all phenomena including

1127
00:47:58,070 --> 00:47:54,750
consciousness they have in parentheses

1128
00:47:59,810 --> 00:47:58,080
are the result of material actions

1129
00:48:03,110 --> 00:47:59,820
now what I'm saying is that everything

1130
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:03,120
that atheists care about hinge on this

1131
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:05,370
assumption being true here's why

1132
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:07,650
consider this for a second what if

1133
00:48:13,070 --> 00:48:10,890
consciousness exists that is what if

1134
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:13,080
that little voice inside your head is

1135
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:15,690
something more than just your brain now

1136
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:17,880
take that one small step further and ask

1137
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:20,970
what if it survives after you die now

1138
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:23,130
you can say that's a huge leap and we

1139
00:48:28,340 --> 00:48:24,780
don't need to go there but we do need to

1140
00:48:30,590 --> 00:48:28,350
ask that question if it's more than just

1141
00:48:32,660 --> 00:48:30,600
your brain but we don't have to ask it

1142
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:32,670
if that little voice inside your head if

1143
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,470
consciousness is all one hundred percent

1144
00:48:38,750 --> 00:48:36,720
your brain then we don't because we know

1145
00:48:40,940 --> 00:48:38,760
when you die your brain dies and

1146
00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:40,950
consciousness dies so that's a real

1147
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:42,720
question and it's a question that

1148
00:48:47,930 --> 00:48:45,030
whether Seth realizes it or other

1149
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:47,940
atheists realize it is really occupying

1150
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:50,970
the mind of a lot of scientists so

1151
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:52,650
during the interview i hammered Seth

1152
00:48:56,180 --> 00:48:54,330
pretty hard about mind equals brain my

1153
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:56,190
nickels brain and he never seemed quite

1154
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:57,810
understand what what's really at play

1155
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:00,000
here but I think after he thinks about

1156
00:49:03,980 --> 00:49:01,650
it for a while and hopefully after he

1157
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:03,990
listens to this interview he'll see that

1158
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:07,710
this is really the core scientific issue

1159
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:11,520
for atheists so let's move on to topic 2

1160
00:49:17,210 --> 00:49:15,330
and actually topic 2 3 & 4 are all my

1161
00:49:19,850 --> 00:49:17,220
supporting evidence for the idea that

1162
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:19,860
mind equals brain really doesn't hold up

1163
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:22,410
anymore and therefore atheism needs to

1164
00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:25,310
be reconsidered in light of this new

1165
00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:28,110
scientific evidence in much the same way

1166
00:49:33,740 --> 00:49:30,380
that Christianity needs to be

1167
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:33,750
reconsidered in light of new biblical

1168
00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:35,610
scholarship or archaeological evidence

1169
00:49:41,090 --> 00:49:38,040
was really had quite a parallel there

1170
00:49:45,710 --> 00:49:41,100
but let me move on to topic to neural

1171
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:45,720
plasticity violates mind equals brain we

1172
00:49:49,070 --> 00:49:46,860
spend a lot of time in the first year of

1173
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:49,080
you talking about Schwartz from UCLA but

1174
00:49:52,850 --> 00:49:51,240
I want to try and tackle it again in a

1175
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:52,860
way that Seth might be able to

1176
00:49:59,570 --> 00:49:57,060
understand so what Schwartz did was he

1177
00:50:02,510 --> 00:49:59,580
took a group of patients that had

1178
00:50:04,070 --> 00:50:02,520
obsessive compulsive disorder and he

1179
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:04,080
sought to treat these patients by

1180
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:06,330
teaching them how to meditate in a very

1181
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:08,970
specific way and what he found was that

1182
00:50:11,660 --> 00:50:10,610
this not only relieved their

1183
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:11,670
obsessive-compulsive

1184
00:50:17,359 --> 00:50:14,520
disorder their OCD but that the physical

1185
00:50:19,609 --> 00:50:17,369
structure of their brain changed as a

1186
00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:19,619
result of their meditation and he did

1187
00:50:23,809 --> 00:50:21,540
this by doing brain imaging before and

1188
00:50:25,970 --> 00:50:23,819
after and he's a very careful scientist

1189
00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:25,980
and physician and he knows what he's

1190
00:50:31,609 --> 00:50:29,460
doing moreover the relationship between

1191
00:50:33,289 --> 00:50:31,619
meditation and changes in the physical

1192
00:50:36,079 --> 00:50:33,299
brain is something that has been

1193
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:36,089
confirmed by other research other labs

1194
00:50:40,849 --> 00:50:38,250
and you can search around for that and

1195
00:50:42,799 --> 00:50:40,859
pretty quickly find that so what does

1196
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:42,809
all this mean what's the big deal well

1197
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:47,250
here it is thought or abstract ideas are

1198
00:50:53,210 --> 00:50:50,250
in material things they're non-physical

1199
00:50:55,099 --> 00:50:53,220
things again Seth could never quite wrap

1200
00:50:56,839 --> 00:50:55,109
his head around this but if you think

1201
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:56,849
about it for a while you'll see it's

1202
00:51:01,640 --> 00:50:59,040
really the only conclusion that you can

1203
00:51:04,819 --> 00:51:01,650
come to and let me try again with a

1204
00:51:07,130 --> 00:51:04,829
simple thought experiment that I think

1205
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:07,140
will drive this home let's say you have

1206
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:10,559
an idea a really good idea and it's

1207
00:51:16,099 --> 00:51:13,290
there in your head you might even think

1208
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:16,109
that it's physically there in your head

1209
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,210
that is that its thorn all those little

1210
00:51:22,430 --> 00:51:20,640
neurons and synapses in your brain okay

1211
00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:22,440
so you have this really great idea and

1212
00:51:27,319 --> 00:51:24,270
you don't want to lose it so you write

1213
00:51:29,150 --> 00:51:27,329
it down and then you die okay where is

1214
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,160
the idea the neurons are gone the

1215
00:51:33,980 --> 00:51:31,920
synapses are gone where's the idea how

1216
00:51:36,319 --> 00:51:33,990
much does it weigh how big is it now you

1217
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:36,329
can't really say it's in the ink on the

1218
00:51:42,530 --> 00:51:40,740
paper obviously it's not where is it now

1219
00:51:44,089 --> 00:51:42,540
we know that the idea still exists

1220
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:44,099
because you wrote it down and like so

1221
00:51:47,780 --> 00:51:45,690
many ideas from the past that have it

1222
00:51:50,329 --> 00:51:47,790
written down someone else can pick it up

1223
00:51:52,099 --> 00:51:50,339
and get it inside their head and it's

1224
00:51:53,569 --> 00:51:52,109
not going to be quite the same inside

1225
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:53,579
their head but you know we could line up

1226
00:51:57,859 --> 00:51:56,010
a thousand people and get it inside all

1227
00:51:59,630 --> 00:51:57,869
their heads and then we could ask him

1228
00:52:02,089 --> 00:51:59,640
questions and we could statistically

1229
00:52:04,220 --> 00:52:02,099
show that it's pretty much the same idea

1230
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:04,230
we could do all that stuff that's

1231
00:52:09,770 --> 00:52:06,960
science and at the end of the day the

1232
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:09,780
only conclusion we could come to is that

1233
00:52:16,130 --> 00:52:13,250
abstract ideas abstract thoughts are

1234
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:16,140
non-physical so what what does all that

1235
00:52:19,849 --> 00:52:18,000
mean let's get back to Schwartz's

1236
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:19,859
experiment what does it mean if a

1237
00:52:24,740 --> 00:52:23,010
non-physical idea that he taught to a

1238
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:24,750
group of patients

1239
00:52:29,330 --> 00:52:27,210
can lead to physical changes in the

1240
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:29,340
structure of the rain well it means that

1241
00:52:34,070 --> 00:52:31,260
this brain thing this thing that

1242
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:34,080
atheists assumed generates consciousness

1243
00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:37,130
is being affected by non-physical things

1244
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:40,920
called ideas it means that materialism

1245
00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:43,890
remember materialism all phenomena

1246
00:52:49,730 --> 00:52:46,920
including consciousness are the result

1247
00:52:52,730 --> 00:52:49,740
of material interactions well it means

1248
00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:52,740
that's been violated it means that mine

1249
00:52:58,460 --> 00:52:55,710
does not equal brain or maybe in this

1250
00:53:02,270 --> 00:52:58,470
case we should say brain does not equal

1251
00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:02,280
mind because if non-physical ideas can

1252
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:04,740
shape the structure of our brain then we

1253
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:08,310
have a major chicken or the egg problem

1254
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:12,890
I mean what came first the idea or the

1255
00:53:18,740 --> 00:53:16,410
brain so that's point 2 and Seth's

1256
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:18,750
shouldn't feel too bad about not getting

1257
00:53:23,570 --> 00:53:20,940
this point because as you remember dr.

1258
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:23,580
Jerry Coyne didn't get it either and

1259
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:26,070
he's a professor of biology at the

1260
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:28,710
University of Chicago but but as you've

1261
00:53:33,890 --> 00:53:31,310
seen if you have some very hardcore

1262
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:33,900
cherished beliefs that you don't want to

1263
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:36,510
violate it's really hard to do any kind

1264
00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:38,880
of thinking on this topics and I think

1265
00:53:44,030 --> 00:53:40,920
that's the roadblock here because it's

1266
00:53:46,250 --> 00:53:44,040
not a hard concept so let's move on to

1267
00:53:49,340 --> 00:53:46,260
point three prominent skeptics have

1268
00:53:52,850 --> 00:53:49,350
already admitted that ESP sigh remote

1269
00:53:55,940 --> 00:53:52,860
viewing all of which by the way violate

1270
00:53:57,710 --> 00:53:55,950
mind equal brain well these guys have

1271
00:54:00,620 --> 00:53:57,720
already admitted that this stuff is

1272
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:00,630
scientifically proven so look this one's

1273
00:54:06,290 --> 00:54:04,290
easy Seth says he doesn't believe in ESP

1274
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,300
at the same time he says he's never

1275
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:08,400
heard of Richard Wiseman and I'm sure

1276
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,410
he's never heard of Dean Radin well

1277
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:13,200
therefore he's saying that he's formed

1278
00:54:19,220 --> 00:54:15,690
these beliefs without ever looking at

1279
00:54:21,620 --> 00:54:19,230
the data period end of story because

1280
00:54:24,110 --> 00:54:21,630
Dean Radin has done more research into

1281
00:54:26,660 --> 00:54:24,120
ESP than almost anyone and he's

1282
00:54:28,220 --> 00:54:26,670
certainly at this time the go-to guy on

1283
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:28,230
this subject and even though I don't

1284
00:54:32,990 --> 00:54:30,690
think much of Richard Wiseman he's more

1285
00:54:35,150 --> 00:54:33,000
or less the go-to guy in terms of being

1286
00:54:38,990 --> 00:54:35,160
an ESP sigh whatever term you want to

1287
00:54:41,060 --> 00:54:39,000
use skeptic so Seth he's a smart guy

1288
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:41,070
studied a lot of other stuff but when it

1289
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:43,440
comes to ESP we can say with confidence

1290
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:45,450
that he doesn't know what he's talking

1291
00:54:51,350 --> 00:54:47,940
about that he's never looked at the data

1292
00:54:52,670 --> 00:54:51,360
never read any of the research but

1293
00:54:55,490 --> 00:54:52,680
here's the interesting part if you

1294
00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:55,500
remember from our interview Seth's major

1295
00:55:00,890 --> 00:54:58,020
push back was that he can't believe that

1296
00:55:03,140 --> 00:55:00,900
any real scientist let alone a skeptic

1297
00:55:05,690 --> 00:55:03,150
would say that since this stuff has been

1298
00:55:09,140 --> 00:55:05,700
proven that maybe we need a new standard

1299
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:09,150
of proof Seth immediately recognized how

1300
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:13,490
ridiculous this is at least initially

1301
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:16,110
because let's see what happens after

1302
00:55:21,050 --> 00:55:19,200
he's infected with the skeptical virus

1303
00:55:22,910 --> 00:55:21,060
on this let's see what happens after he

1304
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:22,920
talks to the politburo and gets the

1305
00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:25,650
official party line on this that's going

1306
00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:28,590
to be really really interesting to see

1307
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:31,710
in here okay point for here it is the

1308
00:55:36,620 --> 00:55:34,310
evidence from nde research

1309
00:55:39,020 --> 00:55:36,630
overwhelmingly suggests the

1310
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:39,030
consciousness in some way we don't fully

1311
00:55:45,980 --> 00:55:42,960
understand survives bodily death so this

1312
00:55:48,740 --> 00:55:45,990
doesn't just violate mind equals brain

1313
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:48,750
it shatters it it shatters it in a way

1314
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:50,970
that probably sends chills down the

1315
00:55:57,050 --> 00:55:53,850
spine of fundamentalist atheists like

1316
00:56:00,530 --> 00:55:57,060
Seth Andrews because now it's clear if

1317
00:56:03,470 --> 00:56:00,540
consciousness survives death then we

1318
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:03,480
have to seriously consider all the other

1319
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:05,250
stuff that generally falls into this

1320
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:08,370
category called the spiritual because

1321
00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:10,770
let's face it survival of consciousness

1322
00:56:16,670 --> 00:56:13,310
is one of the core beliefs of just about

1323
00:56:19,420 --> 00:56:16,680
every religion in the world so if

1324
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:19,430
atheists have to step back and say well

1325
00:56:25,610 --> 00:56:22,410
scientifically on that point it does

1326
00:56:28,610 --> 00:56:25,620
look like religion is right and were

1327
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:28,620
wrong well as you can imagine the whole

1328
00:56:34,820 --> 00:56:32,310
thing starts to unravel now seth's take

1329
00:56:37,490 --> 00:56:34,830
on the nde research is that it's

1330
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:37,500
hypocrisy oh well maybe well no not

1331
00:56:43,700 --> 00:56:40,770
really maybe you see it's not epoxy ax I

1332
00:56:46,070 --> 00:56:43,710
know because pinned on la mala former

1333
00:56:48,350 --> 00:56:46,080
guest ran experiments with real

1334
00:56:50,660 --> 00:56:48,360
near-death experiencers in a real

1335
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,670
hospital for 20 years and he concluded

1336
00:56:55,260 --> 00:56:52,720
it's not haha

1337
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:55,270
I know because jane holden former guest

1338
00:57:00,120 --> 00:56:57,760
and Bruce Grayson reviewed dozens of

1339
00:57:01,650 --> 00:57:00,130
published peer-reviewed studies many of

1340
00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:01,660
which they did themselves and they

1341
00:57:05,970 --> 00:57:03,760
concluded its not epoxy ax I know

1342
00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:05,980
because Jeff long former guest who's a

1343
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:07,750
medical doctor working in a hospital

1344
00:57:12,540 --> 00:57:10,450
looked at thousands of cases of

1345
00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:12,550
near-death experience and he concluded

1346
00:57:18,420 --> 00:57:16,360
its not epoxy ax so please Seth come

1347
00:57:20,730 --> 00:57:18,430
back on skeptical and tell me why you

1348
00:57:24,030 --> 00:57:20,740
think in the ease are explainable by

1349
00:57:26,250 --> 00:57:24,040
hypoxia oh and please don't cite Michael

1350
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:26,260
Shermer because he's never done any

1351
00:57:30,450 --> 00:57:28,480
near-death experience research and he's

1352
00:57:33,090 --> 00:57:30,460
just gonna cite people like Susan

1353
00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:33,100
Blackmore former guest who's already

1354
00:57:36,780 --> 00:57:35,110
admitted that she doesn't have a clue

1355
00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:36,790
what current research ended near death

1356
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:38,920
experiences says and that she's not been

1357
00:57:43,230 --> 00:57:40,480
current in the field for the last 20

1358
00:57:45,660 --> 00:57:43,240
years and don't cite papers like mobs

1359
00:57:48,060 --> 00:57:45,670
and wat because we've talked to Carolyn

1360
00:57:51,060 --> 00:57:48,070
wat and she can't even explain the title

1361
00:57:53,250 --> 00:57:51,070
of her paper let alone why it's littered

1362
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:53,260
with citation Harrison has some very

1363
00:57:59,010 --> 00:57:56,530
erroneous conclusions and if you really

1364
00:58:00,750 --> 00:57:59,020
want to cite Michael Persinger somebody

1365
00:58:02,670 --> 00:58:00,760
who brought up in the interview and

1366
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:02,680
another former guest of this show and

1367
00:58:08,070 --> 00:58:05,110
all the god helmet stuff that he's done

1368
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:08,080
be careful because while Persinger might

1369
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:11,050
be somewhat of an NDE skeptic he also

1370
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:13,930
maintains that he's proven ESP in his

1371
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:15,730
lab so you're going to have a hard time

1372
00:58:21,030 --> 00:58:18,250
fitting him into your world view so

1373
00:58:25,830 --> 00:58:21,040
folks those are my four points those are

1374
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:25,840
my territory if you will and Seth really

1375
00:58:29,850 --> 00:58:27,730
hoping you come back on I'll give you

1376
00:58:32,670 --> 00:58:29,860
the straight answer that you wanted your

1377
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:32,680
yes no answer on do I believe in God

1378
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:34,450
i'll actually i'll give it to you right

1379
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:36,730
now i'll borrow it from raymond moody

1380
00:58:42,810 --> 00:58:39,730
another former guest and say i don't

1381
00:58:46,020 --> 00:58:42,820
believe in god but i have a relationship

1382
00:58:48,570 --> 00:58:46,030
with God now finally I've said many

1383
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:48,580
times that skeptics don't like to debate

1384
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:51,250
as you've seen on this show over and

1385
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:53,200
over and over again they run from these

1386
00:58:57,930 --> 00:58:55,570
debates and when they get halfway into

1387
00:58:59,760 --> 00:58:57,940
them they run even faster because the

1388
00:59:03,000 --> 00:58:59,770
skeptical positions we're talking about

1389
00:59:06,299 --> 00:59:03,010
here are sheer nonsense and no one wants

1390
00:59:08,489 --> 00:59:06,309
it offend such silliness as for set even

1391
00:59:10,650 --> 00:59:08,499
he agreed to a two-part interview going

1392
00:59:12,809 --> 00:59:10,660
into this my guess is that he'll back

1393
00:59:15,929 --> 00:59:12,819
out around two with some high-minded

1394
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:15,939
statement about my agenda yeah I got an

1395
00:59:24,660 --> 00:59:21,119
agenda follow the data wherever it leads

1396
00:59:28,079 --> 00:59:24,670
okay I have an update seth has backed

1397
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:28,089
out of the second interview now you know

1398
00:59:31,589 --> 00:59:29,650
I shouldn't be surprised I even said

1399
00:59:33,299 --> 00:59:31,599
when i recorded my closing to the first

1400
00:59:34,650 --> 00:59:33,309
interview that I hey this guy's going to

1401
00:59:37,410 --> 00:59:34,660
back out and he's going to say some

1402
00:59:39,420 --> 00:59:37,420
high-minded stuff about my agenda but I

1403
00:59:41,699 --> 00:59:39,430
didn't think he really would I mean he's

1404
00:59:44,249 --> 00:59:41,709
the thinking atheist he's the only

1405
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:44,259
chance we ever someone who says they're

1406
00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:46,689
really going to dig in and think about

1407
00:59:52,319 --> 00:59:49,209
this stuff and yet he's backed out I

1408
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:52,329
have to read you some of these emails it

1409
00:59:58,229 --> 00:59:55,930
is so much of what our dialogue on

1410
00:59:59,880 --> 00:59:58,239
skeptic 0 is about so here's how it

1411
01:00:03,029 --> 00:59:59,890
transpired immediately after the

1412
01:00:04,739 --> 01:00:03,039
interview i sent Seth an email I laid

1413
01:00:08,489 --> 01:00:04,749
out just like I did for you a minute ago

1414
01:00:12,479 --> 01:00:08,499
the 4 points links to Jeffery Schwartz

1415
01:00:14,249 --> 01:00:12,489
links to Dean Radin Richard Wiseman all

1416
01:00:16,199 --> 01:00:14,259
that stuff and at the end of that email

1417
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:16,209
I give Seth two options I said look we

1418
01:00:20,549 --> 01:00:18,729
can schedule another dialog / debate in

1419
01:00:23,069 --> 01:00:20,559
a couple weeks or I can publish what we

1420
01:00:25,439 --> 01:00:23,079
just did along with my comments and see

1421
01:00:28,109 --> 01:00:25,449
what listeners think before we try again

1422
01:00:29,759 --> 01:00:28,119
and I asked his opinion on that so in

1423
01:00:31,259 --> 01:00:29,769
this first email response to me he's

1424
01:00:32,969 --> 01:00:31,269
already back pedaling a little bit but

1425
01:00:34,650 --> 01:00:32,979
he's still in the game he says whatever

1426
01:00:36,809 --> 01:00:34,660
it's fine play the interview and let's

1427
01:00:38,370 --> 01:00:36,819
see what happens he says I think the

1428
01:00:40,559 --> 01:00:38,380
Atheist community and religious

1429
01:00:43,169 --> 01:00:40,569
community grow frustrated because your

1430
01:00:44,669 --> 01:00:43,179
assertions attempt to create a hybrid I

1431
01:00:46,499 --> 01:00:44,679
don't know where he's going with that

1432
01:00:47,849 --> 01:00:46,509
but it says go ahead and publish the

1433
01:00:50,759 --> 01:00:47,859
first to interview and we'll go from

1434
01:00:52,829 --> 01:00:50,769
there so then maybe an hour later I get

1435
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:52,839
the next email from Seth it's not

1436
01:00:56,609 --> 01:00:54,910
practical to read the whole thing to you

1437
01:00:59,459 --> 01:00:56,619
here but I'll give you some of the

1438
01:01:01,410 --> 01:00:59,469
highlights he says Alex my tennis match

1439
01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:01,420
just got canceled a few minutes ago due

1440
01:01:04,859 --> 01:01:03,670
to rain go figure I do appreciate the

1441
01:01:07,979 --> 01:01:04,869
opportunity to be a guest on your show

1442
01:01:10,289 --> 01:01:07,989
if I can be honest and that's been the

1443
01:01:12,449 --> 01:01:10,299
case all evening I guess I feel like

1444
01:01:14,579 --> 01:01:12,459
I've been participating in a religious

1445
01:01:16,529 --> 01:01:14,589
show he goes on to say personally I

1446
01:01:18,839 --> 01:01:16,539
can't participate on the same tier as

1447
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:18,849
you because I see you're measuring

1448
01:01:23,150 --> 01:01:19,890
sticks as

1449
01:01:26,450 --> 01:01:23,160
suspect near death experiences reports

1450
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:26,460
of esps and copious amounts of chatter

1451
01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:30,000
on external consciousness I've come from

1452
01:01:34,460 --> 01:01:32,760
a belief in such things and rejected

1453
01:01:35,870 --> 01:01:34,470
them send me the name of the ESP

1454
01:01:37,609 --> 01:01:35,880
scientist guy and I'm gonna have to

1455
01:01:40,940 --> 01:01:37,619
think about whether or not up for

1456
01:01:42,799 --> 01:01:40,950
another hour of this so now next our

1457
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:42,809
emails are kind of crossing each other

1458
01:01:47,059 --> 01:01:44,910
i'm sending him and he's sending me at

1459
01:01:49,970 --> 01:01:47,069
the same time and in the process of me

1460
01:01:53,660 --> 01:01:49,980
sending this next email Seth sends me an

1461
01:01:57,500 --> 01:01:53,670
email and says Alex just saw the part

1462
01:01:59,329 --> 01:01:57,510
about part 2 that is my email exchange

1463
01:02:00,859 --> 01:01:59,339
with them initially that said we're

1464
01:02:02,269 --> 01:02:00,869
going to do this in two parts we're have

1465
01:02:04,099 --> 01:02:02,279
a two-part thing which I explained the

1466
01:02:06,740 --> 01:02:04,109
whole thing to him he says I just saw

1467
01:02:11,180 --> 01:02:06,750
the part about talk to my apologies I'll

1468
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:11,190
do the second interview as I agreed

1469
01:02:15,259 --> 01:02:13,890
remember that so in the meantime while

1470
01:02:20,029 --> 01:02:15,269
he was sending me that short little

1471
01:02:21,740 --> 01:02:20,039
email I sent him this email Seth I think

1472
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:21,750
there's plenty of fire to make for a

1473
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:24,210
good follow-up debate smiley face I

1474
01:02:30,019 --> 01:02:26,640
think many atheists despite a lot of

1475
01:02:32,329 --> 01:02:30,029
bluster are lazy thinkers if you want to

1476
01:02:33,970 --> 01:02:32,339
know about nde research go to the guys

1477
01:02:36,980 --> 01:02:33,980
who publish in peer-reviewed journals

1478
01:02:39,230 --> 01:02:36,990
not popular professional skeptics like

1479
01:02:41,779 --> 01:02:39,240
Michael Shermer who gets slapped around

1480
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:41,789
by researchers like pin Val namal if you

1481
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:44,130
want to understand ESP look at Dean

1482
01:02:49,220 --> 01:02:46,319
Radin published more than anyone not

1483
01:02:51,799 --> 01:02:49,230
gestures like James Randi you think I'm

1484
01:02:54,650 --> 01:02:51,809
driving an agenda I think you are that

1485
01:02:56,329 --> 01:02:54,660
makes for a good debate smiley face but

1486
01:02:58,759 --> 01:02:56,339
that's also why we have to get beyond

1487
01:03:01,700 --> 01:02:58,769
what you think and what I think and hash

1488
01:03:03,319 --> 01:03:01,710
out the data so here's the next email i

1489
01:03:05,690 --> 01:03:03,329
get from seven here's where things

1490
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:05,700
really go off the rails you've heard

1491
01:03:10,099 --> 01:03:07,470
this before if you listen to skeptic oh

1492
01:03:13,220 --> 01:03:10,109
so here's the email i received from Seth

1493
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:13,230
the following morning well I did some

1494
01:03:19,130 --> 01:03:16,410
digging and I apparently confused you

1495
01:03:21,319 --> 01:03:19,140
with skeptic oh that's CEO and it would

1496
01:03:24,140 --> 01:03:21,329
appear that i'm not the only one who got

1497
01:03:26,059 --> 01:03:24,150
caught in that oversight talk about

1498
01:03:28,730 --> 01:03:26,069
being infected with the atheists

1499
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:28,740
skeptical virus he's obviously read some

1500
01:03:32,569 --> 01:03:30,420
stuff on the internet now right

1501
01:03:34,670 --> 01:03:32,579
I was also given the impression that we

1502
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:34,680
were going to discuss my former faith

1503
01:03:39,650 --> 01:03:37,170
and the often soft approach I take

1504
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:39,660
towards believers among the hardliners

1505
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:42,960
instead we spent an hour walking down a

1506
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:45,599
path of psychobabble interesting and

1507
01:03:51,410 --> 01:03:48,000
seeing you lead me towards validating

1508
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:51,420
your own agenda it was disingenuous and

1509
01:03:57,289 --> 01:03:54,210
poor form I'm not interested in

1510
01:03:59,539 --> 01:03:57,299
reappearing Seth ok so we slept on

1511
01:04:02,480 --> 01:03:59,549
things and he's read some blog posts and

1512
01:04:04,910 --> 01:04:02,490
he's read some comments good deal my

1513
01:04:07,579 --> 01:04:04,920
response Seth come on you look silly

1514
01:04:10,460 --> 01:04:07,589
here you confused me with skeptic oh

1515
01:04:12,530 --> 01:04:10,470
really how I sent you the link to my

1516
01:04:15,260 --> 01:04:12,540
site i sent you a list of my former

1517
01:04:18,799 --> 01:04:15,270
guests your statement is not credible

1518
01:04:20,809 --> 01:04:18,809
moreover my original email may clear my

1519
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:20,819
intentions and then I quote him the

1520
01:04:24,349 --> 01:04:22,650
original email that I sent and I

1521
01:04:26,510 --> 01:04:24,359
highlighted the part we've hosted many

1522
01:04:29,180 --> 01:04:26,520
debates with prominent atheist

1523
01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:29,190
Christians and consciousness researchers

1524
01:04:33,980 --> 01:04:31,319
what would have to add that this wasn't

1525
01:04:35,599 --> 01:04:33,990
just one email he sent me back and then

1526
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:35,609
I send the part about the two-part

1527
01:04:39,049 --> 01:04:37,200
interview and he was in agreement of all

1528
01:04:41,839 --> 01:04:39,059
that so it is completely not credible

1529
01:04:44,510 --> 01:04:41,849
back to my email to him again your claim

1530
01:04:46,309 --> 01:04:44,520
that I misled you is not credible look

1531
01:04:48,530 --> 01:04:46,319
Seth we don't have to be buddies to

1532
01:04:51,260 --> 01:04:48,540
debate this stuff but running from an

1533
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:51,270
honest debate gets us nowhere you wind

1534
01:04:56,180 --> 01:04:53,730
up looking exactly like the dogmatic

1535
01:04:58,640 --> 01:04:56,190
Christians you rail against for not

1536
01:05:01,069 --> 01:04:58,650
being willing to think hope you'll

1537
01:05:03,170 --> 01:05:01,079
reconsider you twice agreed to come back

1538
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:03,180
on both before and after the initial

1539
01:05:07,609 --> 01:05:04,650
interview you're going to look pretty

1540
01:05:10,220 --> 01:05:07,619
silly if you back down now to which Seth

1541
01:05:12,140 --> 01:05:10,230
responded rather tersely no it's my

1542
01:05:14,690 --> 01:05:12,150
fault for not doing due diligence I

1543
01:05:17,539 --> 01:05:14,700
think you've got plenty of material I'm

1544
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:17,549
out to which I replied you're just

1545
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:19,770
ducking a debate parenthetically because

1546
01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:21,690
you're afraid to lose I've seen it over

1547
01:05:26,980 --> 01:05:23,760
and over again atheism is as much about

1548
01:05:29,329 --> 01:05:26,990
don't challenge my cherished beliefs as

1549
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:29,339
Christianity you're not going to look

1550
01:05:35,180 --> 01:05:32,160
good on this one to which Seth replied I

1551
01:05:37,730 --> 01:05:35,190
think this is the tone that most alarms

1552
01:05:40,430 --> 01:05:37,740
me the painting the insinuation of

1553
01:05:43,470 --> 01:05:40,440
cowardice the schoolyard taunts and

1554
01:05:46,140 --> 01:05:43,480
attempt to elicit the desired reaction

1555
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:46,150
this is not how mature people conduct

1556
01:05:51,810 --> 01:05:48,850
themselves it's certainly not a mindset

1557
01:05:57,090 --> 01:05:51,820
or tactic I'm obligated to entertain

1558
01:05:59,520 --> 01:05:57,100
that is all Seth my response again not

1559
01:06:01,530 --> 01:05:59,530
credible we talked for an hour we found

1560
01:06:03,750 --> 01:06:01,540
many points of agreement some points of

1561
01:06:05,970 --> 01:06:03,760
disagreement it was a civil pleasant

1562
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:05,980
conversation the follow-up would be the

1563
01:06:10,890 --> 01:06:08,770
same no shouting down of your ideas no

1564
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:10,900
cutting off of your opportunity to make

1565
01:06:16,349 --> 01:06:13,450
your case regarding insinuations of

1566
01:06:18,180 --> 01:06:16,359
cowardice will Seth you're ducking out

1567
01:06:21,150 --> 01:06:18,190
of a debate because you don't have a

1568
01:06:23,370 --> 01:06:21,160
good response to my points you can call

1569
01:06:25,620 --> 01:06:23,380
that whatever you will we don't agree on

1570
01:06:28,349 --> 01:06:25,630
some stuff it's not always going to be

1571
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:28,359
pretty but I don't see how you can so

1572
01:06:34,140 --> 01:06:31,450
blatantly trample all over your stated

1573
01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:34,150
mission statement of challenge the

1574
01:06:40,170 --> 01:06:37,060
opposition and start thinking your

1575
01:06:42,270 --> 01:06:40,180
excuses for not coming back on are going

1576
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:42,280
to look pretty transparent you've

1577
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:44,170
already contradicted yourself several

1578
01:06:49,050 --> 01:06:47,050
times in this email exchange I'm not

1579
01:06:51,990 --> 01:06:49,060
trying to be nasty but then again these

1580
01:06:54,060 --> 01:06:52,000
are hard conversations to have and a

1581
01:06:58,370 --> 01:06:54,070
certain amount of brutal honesty is

1582
01:07:02,550 --> 01:06:58,380
necessary and that's the last I heard

1583
01:07:06,060 --> 01:07:02,560
from Seth Andrews so at this point I

1584
01:07:08,099 --> 01:07:06,070
have to ask for some help if you're an

1585
01:07:09,330 --> 01:07:08,109
atheist or a skeptic materialist

1586
01:07:12,420 --> 01:07:09,340
reduction is whatever you call yourself

1587
01:07:14,370 --> 01:07:12,430
and you know someone who can pick up the

1588
01:07:17,609 --> 01:07:14,380
gauntlet who can make the case who can

1589
01:07:20,310 --> 01:07:17,619
respond to the points that I've made get

1590
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:20,320
a Mon skeptical or ask them to invite me

1591
01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:23,290
on their show again anywhere anytime

1592
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:27,070
with anyone anyone as long as they're a

1593
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:29,680
serious public figure I mean Seth

1594
01:07:36,359 --> 01:07:33,010
Andrews the thinking atheist has 96

1595
01:07:39,510 --> 01:07:36,369
thousand followers on YouTube that makes

1596
01:07:42,420 --> 01:07:39,520
him someone worth talking to so anyone

1597
01:07:44,220 --> 01:07:42,430
like that I'm willing to talk to why

1598
01:07:46,260 --> 01:07:44,230
aren't they willing to debate me what

1599
01:07:47,970 --> 01:07:46,270
are they afraid of or if you don't want

1600
01:07:51,870 --> 01:07:47,980
to do that here's another suggestion

1601
01:07:54,180 --> 01:07:51,880
okay stop being a frickin atheist for a

1602
01:07:56,890 --> 01:07:54,190
minute and look at the bay to look at

1603
01:07:59,200 --> 01:07:56,900
the evidence stop being led around

1604
01:08:01,740 --> 01:07:59,210
by a group of people who promised to

1605
01:08:05,050 --> 01:08:01,750
cure you of your Christian brainwashing

1606
01:08:09,550 --> 01:08:05,060
only to infect you with the atheism

1607
01:08:12,430 --> 01:08:09,560
virus be a free thinker do SF Andrew

1608
01:08:18,100 --> 01:08:12,440
says as opposed to what he really does

1609
01:08:19,930 --> 01:08:18,110
and think okay enough of that hey thanks

1610
01:08:22,330 --> 01:08:19,940
for joining me it's been an interesting

1611
01:08:24,970 --> 01:08:22,340
little ride here with the thinking

1612
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:24,980
atheist if you would like to join in a

1613
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:27,050
dialogue on this show and I really hope

1614
01:08:30,910 --> 01:08:29,240
you will but what your take is as long

1615
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:30,920
as your civil and want to have a real

1616
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:33,170
dialogue we'd love to have that dialogue

1617
01:08:38,980 --> 01:08:35,810
with you the place to do that is the

1618
01:08:42,490 --> 01:08:38,990
skeptic Oh website it's at sk-ii pti k

1619
01:08:44,830 --> 01:08:42,500
oh don't get confused like Seth and put

1620
01:08:46,510 --> 01:08:44,840
a/c in there it's a K and there you'll

1621
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:46,520
find our forum where you can engage in

1622
01:08:50,350 --> 01:08:48,530
this dialogue also have the comment

1623
01:08:52,180 --> 01:08:50,360
section of the website which has this

1624
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:52,190
new format which I really think is quite

1625
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:55,250
nice from discussed that will I think

1626
01:08:59,260 --> 01:08:57,170
engage people more and allow us to have

1627
01:09:02,080 --> 01:08:59,270
more of a dialogue and then finally you

1628
01:09:04,210 --> 01:09:02,090
can email or facebook me from the

1629
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:04,220
website you'll also find their links to

1630
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:06,710
all our previous shows over 180 of them

1631
01:09:11,950 --> 01:09:09,530
you can download them all for free many

1632
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:11,960
more shows coming up stay with me for